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 Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer

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blugu
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PostSubject: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 9:57 am

Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer

So your car is boosted from the factory, or your car has been equipped with aftermarket boost or you
have an n/a car and are planning on boosting whatever the case, you are interested in buying an aftermarket computer but you are a little confused, its o.k we have all been there, most of us still are
(including me – the blind leading the blind in this article ? ) So which ecu is best for you? This umbrella question encompasses a whole host of other questions all of which I will try to address.

First
we should understand how and what engine parameters your ecu takes in to determine the tune of your car. There are three main parameters (maps) when tuning your car:
1.) Fuel (A/F Ratio)
2.) Cam angle *note*
3.) Ignition timing

*note* When I talk about cam angle, I will be referring to today’s newer cars with variable cam timing…

O.K. so your car uses these three parameters to build a “map” or tune for your vehicle.

Next let’s explain what a standalone ecu and piggy back ecu are and what they can and can’t do.

Stand Alone ECU
There are many different types of stand alone ecu’s that all encompass their own unique features, to many to talk about, so I will try to stick to the roots of the equipment.
A stand alone ecu is an ecu that is separate from your cars stock ecu (in most cases, Hondata would be an exception). A standalone ecu lets you build new ignition cam angle and ignition maps for your car, starting from scratch. This is the main difference between a piggy back and standalone and also the most important so I think I’ll leave it at that.

Piggy back ECU and or A/F Controller

Again,
like the standalone ecu, there are many different types of piggy backs with their own unique functions. A piggy back ecu or a/f controller takes signals from your sensors and modifies them to trick your ecu
into reading a different value.

Ok. So which ecu is for you. Once having a fairly in depth idea (more then the knowledge base
that this article provided) of how your ecu builds maps and how a piggy back and standalone ecu work the answer should become quite obvious.

If you have a n/a car and you are planning on boosting it, there really is only one reasonable choice. A stand alone ecu. This is because a naturally aspirated cars ecu is programmed for a na engine. The main concern is your ignition timing. An na tuned car (i.e your stock car) will have ignition maps that are way to advanced for a boosted application causing detonation, which is detrimental to your engine.

Well doesn’t a a/f controller and piggy back computer control ignition timing?
Yes
but not effectively. An a/f controller takes readings from your maf/map sensor and alters them trick your ecu into reading a different signal. And since all your maps are tied in together, your maf/map
sensor signal also will move where your ecu reads its ignition timing on the map. your maf/map is not only used to maintain air/fuel, but its also used by the ecu to determine load, and load is used for
determining timing advance, this has the side effect of fooling the ecu into advancing timing beyond what is safe. These readings will also effect where your cam angle is, which more then likely will not be at the optimal angle for your boosted application.

Newer piggy
backs like the e-manage ultimate can control your ignition timing separately from your airflow readings, but there are still catches. You are able to change ignition timing maps but the e-manage simply changes the output signal the ecu sends to the coils. The problem is the ignition timing numbers are not always consistent with the changes you make to the load sensor, whether its your map, or maf sensor. So you are guessing the timing numbers. The stock ecu also has multiple
maps it can run for different conditions so you are not always consistent with the tune.

A stand alone ecu lets you build,from scratch, completely new ignition timing maps and fuel maps and cam angle maps. Optimal for your boosted application so you can run a safer tune that will make more power.

A car that has come from the factory already has optimal ignition timing maps and there for really
only needs a a/f controller or a piggy back that can compensate in a relatively small window range. Unless you plan on drastically changing your stock boosted air flow characteristics, a piggy back will suit you just fine.

Got it from other forum; just for ur additional info...
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 11:39 am

so bro what is the point bro?!
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 12:30 pm

Kalau mau main ECU suda.. jangan alang2.. hehehe
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 1:03 pm

gila kuasa ni....hehehe
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 1:32 pm

sdh tentu standalone yg best, semua dia control sampai ignition2 dia kacau, kalau piggy back ni map sensor jak fuel system jak kacau.
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime26/1/2008, 9:41 pm

better guna standalone+MSD..baru kick..$$$ pon kick..

barg yang half2 budget..better guna piggyback..
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime29/1/2008, 8:19 pm

Contoh² piggy back yg berada di pasaran

Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer InterceptorStandalone ecu vs a piggy back computer A19aStandalone ecu vs a piggy back computer 523
Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer HKS-F-ConV-proStandalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Apexi_afc_neoStandalone ecu vs a piggy back computer ApexiSAFCIIBlack
Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Image005


Last edited by on 30/1/2008, 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime29/1/2008, 8:27 pm

Contoh² MSD;
Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD-PN8230Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD8252Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD8225
Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD8202Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD6430Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD2_2
Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer MSD


Last edited by on 30/1/2008, 8:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime30/1/2008, 1:18 am

caya lah bro blugu..brapa harga MSD complite skarang???
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime30/1/2008, 8:30 am

vip_user wrote:
caya lah bro blugu..brapa harga MSD complite skarang???

banyak jenis woo... ko try cek ebay.com.my utk harga pasaran secara +/-
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime10/2/2008, 5:46 pm

Standalone - 100% flexibility. May not able to use standard gadgets unless included in the system.
Piggyback - 50-70%. idling remains standards. All gadget usable such as traction control, airbag, etc....
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime12/2/2008, 3:29 pm

di mana bule pasang ni barang?kk ada?
mcm mana kita bule tau ecu keta jenis apa?
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime12/2/2008, 5:30 pm

depends on ur wallet, apa pun bule pasang. lots of top mechanics can do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime12/2/2008, 6:00 pm

smalcarlife kunun pandai pasang tu emanage.tu tuannya bagi taulah.cuba tanya kunun si minica tu aku dengar dia kerja di sana.
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime15/2/2008, 3:47 pm

Inanam pun ada jual + psg emanage, rm1.3k - 1.8k, kedai 818
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime15/2/2008, 4:29 pm

blugu wrote:
Inanam pun ada jual + psg emanage, rm1.3k - 1.8k, kedai 818

yup ada jual..

kami bole tulung pasang..


apa kabar ko blugu?

aku bah ini kawan lama dari xceleration...
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime15/2/2008, 4:46 pm

pasang sia pandai, tapi malas
Tune pandai sikit2 tapi barang bikin monitor ndak cukup. Sia cuma ada AFR Ratio ja LC-1. Tunggu next month mau angkat LMA-3. after this bule buka kadai tuner! hehehhe.......

Minica, itu piston VR4, miata and Trottle body EVO3 masi ada? sia ingat mau angkat balik.
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime15/2/2008, 10:54 pm

minica wrote:
blugu wrote:
Inanam pun ada jual + psg emanage, rm1.3k - 1.8k, kedai 818

yup ada jual..

kami bole tulung pasang..


apa kabar ko blugu?

aku bah ini kawan lama dari xceleration...

Yes, I know u 2.. What a Face
bout the piggyback, i heard that ur emanage kancil beat the kancil with microtech setting? Congrats over there
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime22/2/2008, 2:59 pm

blugu wrote:
Inanam pun ada jual + psg emanage, rm1.3k - 1.8k, kedai 818

inanam sebelah mana bro?
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime22/2/2008, 4:26 pm

kedai 818 accessories
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime24/7/2008, 6:03 pm





Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer 1142













Engine Management GReddy E-Manage Ultimate (with harness)




DEscriptION


The Greddy e-Manage Ultimate does what no other piggyback ECU can.
Engineered to preserve the best features of the original e-Manage
(economical price, no need for tuning from scratch, & compatible
for most Japanese performance vehicles). Physical dimensions of the
case are the same as the previous e-manage model, however the “e-manage
Ultimate” has a black-chrome finish.


SPECIFICATIONS



  • Speed Limiter Cut Feature
    - This feature will eliminate the factory speed limiter.
    (May not work on some vehicles)
  • Throttle Setting
    - Any voltage can be inputted directly
    to set the throttle position.
  • Warning Setting

  • - “e-manage
    Ultimate” can illuminate the
    Active L.E.D. as a
    warning light for RPM and/or one
    additional parameter from
    the menu, by selecting and
    setting a warning point value (or
    an unused “I/J CH” can be used to activate a relay to illuminate an external warning light).
  • Ignition Cut Feature
    - With the installation of a
    switch (in the “ON” position), ignition
    can be cut at a set RPM point
  • Map Trace
  • Protect Feature
    - Each Map has the option to be password protected
  • A/T Shift Compensation Feature
    - On vehicles with Automatic Transmissions, ignition timing can be compensated
    at set shift-up and shift-down points
  • Channel Change Feature
    - Vehicles with a distributor type
    ignition system may
    able to use group fire or individual ignition systems (Replacement parts
    and modifications
    to the wire harness is required)Also, Group injection systems may be
    changed to sequential injection (Modifications to
    the wire harness is required).

This GReddy E-Manage Ultimate (with harness) laptop or GReddy E-Manage Ultimate (with harness) notebook is about 1500 gram.
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PostSubject: Re: Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer   Standalone ecu vs a piggy back computer Icon_minitime24/7/2008, 6:32 pm

Greddy V-Manage Review

Variable Valve Timing Control The Easy Way

writer: Aaron Bonk


Variable valve timing is one of those things expected of today's engines. Like
fuel injection, aluminum cylinder heads or four- cylinder engines with
16 valves, dynamic camshaft manipulation is more common than it's not.
It isn't new though. Fiat patented the first hydraulic operated
variable valve timing system in the 1960s followed by a somewhat
unsuccessful attempt by General Motors a decade or so later. Most
credit Nissan as being the first to implement such a system in
production cars, but it was actually Alfa Romeo. It was Nissan's
Valve-Timing Control System (NVCS) that garnished the notoriety though.
Honda soon followed with VTEC, Mitsubishi with MIVEC, BMW with VANOS
and so on. Today nearly every manufacturer offers some sort of valve
timing manipulation under the hood.

What variable valve timing does is simple; the way it works is sort of
complex. The technology allows valve timing and overlap manipulation
(twin-cam) during engine operation. It's like continually swapping
camshafts. While the motor's running. Multiple times. Engine's that
employ Honda's i-VTEC play with both of these variables as well as
alter valve lift while systems like General Motors' VVT play only with
valve timing. The method by which any of these changes occur is
different between manufacturers. Valve timing can be controlled
hydraulically or electronically by rotating either the camshaft, its
respective gear or by modifying chain tension during engine operation.
The way things get done varies, but the end results are similar.
Variable valve timing allows engines to burn cleaner, run smoother, yet
maintain valve timing characteristics on the top end that, 20 years
ago, would make for poor idling, horrible emissions and pretty bad
low-rpm responsiveness.

OEM's equip cars with such systems to get the best of both worlds: low
emissions and decent torque/horsepower output consumers will pay for.
If you're interested in the torque/horsepower part of the equation then
you know the valve characteristics designated by the manufacturer can
be improved upon. GReddy's new v-Manage addresses this. The v-Manage
allows users to manipulate valve timing characteristics on vehicles
equipped with such systems for more power and in some cases improved
fuel economy and emissions. The v-Manage is compatible with many
manufacturers including Honda's i-VTEC, Mitsubishi's MIVEC, Toyota's
VVT-i, Subaru's AVCS and Nissan's CVTC among others. The e-Manage-sized
box does a few important things, most notably of which is to control
the overall adjustment of the engine's valve timing map. The computer
can also data log valve timing events, display them on a PC, and can be
linked with any e-Manage Ultimate. If you can find your way around the
e-Manage Ultimate software, learning the v-Manage will be easy.

The v-Manage works in tandem with the factory ECM and, with nothing more than a serial cable, plugs right into any e-Manage Ultimate. Installing
one is simple and consists of little more than basic wiring that anybody messing with valve timing characteristics should be able to figure out. Navigating through the software is also easy. That's because it uses the e-Manage Ultimate software, or at least an updated version of it. If you're familiar with GReddy's existing e-Manage fuel injector and ignition timing maps then working with the v-Manage's valve timing maps won't be a problem.

The v-Manage does three things you should care about: besides letting users create custom valve timing maps, it can change high-cam switchover points on engines that feature i-VTEC or VVTL-i, and it also offers valve timing data logging - not just for v-Manage-modified maps but also for OEM-configured maps. And if an e-Manage Ultimate is hooked up, valve timing can be logged and traced along with fuel and timing maps for precise tuning of all three variables. It's not uncommon to find huge power gains from cam timing adjustments. Valve timing can be adjusted independently with the v-Manage for both intake and exhaust cams or single cams. Like e-Manage fuel maps, v-Manage timing maps feature engine speed along the X-axis and four user-selectable variables along the Y-axis: throttle position,
airflow, volumetric efficiency and engine temperature. Adjustments can
be made to any of the map's 256 cells for both advanced or retarded
valve timing.

You won't find an engine that doesn't respond to valve timing adjustments.
The valves control how much air enters the combustion chamber based on
when they open, how fast they open, and how far they open. Changing any
one of these events will affect power output, but not always in a good
way. Everything needs to be considered before making adjustments.
Turbocharged engines will respond differently than naturally aspirated
engines. Adjustable camshaft timing gears are one way to make timing
changes and are a good start but, unlike the v-Manage, only make static
changes. The ability to change these characteristics dynamically with
something like the v-Manage can prove invaluable on the dyno.

Four-stroke engines operate within a 720-degree cycle. When you do the math, this assumes that the intake and exhaust valves open and close every 180 degrees. They don't. On paper, this works out, but since you also have to account for the time it takes for the valve to get into position, 180 degrees won't cut it. Valves need to be opened early in order to reach full lift at the appropriate time. And closing them later allows more air to be drawn in or out while the piston dwells. A good thing. All of this extra valve timing leads to overlap, the condition in which both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. It happens briefly, specifically at TDC when the intake valves are opening and the exhaust valves are closing. Overlap creates a scavenging process that allows exhaust gases to be removed quicker, making room for additional intake charge and a better cylinder fill. The v-Manage lets you do this easily. Overlap is not as conducive to forced induction though. If the exhaust valves are open during the high-pressure intake charge, it's likely to blow right past the exhaust
valves, bypassing combustion. Not a good thing. Allowing the exhaust
valves to open earlier and close later but keeping the intake timing
more conservative generally works best for turbo applications. Like any
tuning solution, the v-Manage can do wonders, but it can also get you
into trouble if you don't know what you're doing.

For proof we took a look at GReddy's own EVO IX with a recently tuned v-Manage. On the dyno, simple intake timing adjustments resulted in eight additional horsepower - not bad when you consider the intake camshaft hasn't been changed, only valve timing. Torque also increased by a factor of 5 lb-ft with evident improvements across the entire powerband. As other
variables like boost, compression and engine speed increase, the benefits realized through valve timing control will only show even larger improvements. It may have taken a good 40 years to perfect what Fiat started, but as they say: better late than never.


Ref: http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0708_turp_greddy_v_manage/index.html

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