SIOLOON FUN CLUB

Please log in or register before viewing the unlimited contents of this forum.
Thank you for visiting our website.

by aLFFiaN.

SIOLOON FC on Facebook
LIKE or UNLIKE

    Turbo vs. Supercharger

    Share
    avatar
    blugu
    ADMINISTRATOR
    ADMINISTRATOR

    Male
    Countries/State : Sabah
    Age : 38
    location : Kota Kinabalu-Putatan
    Tag ID: : SFC02202
    Points : 7177
    Reputation : 10
    Number of posts : 2945
    30102008

    http://i38.servimg.com/u/f3 Turbo vs. Supercharger

    Post by blugu

    Turbo vs. Supercharger
    4/3/2002 11:31:00 PM

    It's one of the most common questions we are asked - the answer to which is almost impossible to find
    "What is better - a supercharger or a turbo?"

    We only wish the answer were that simple, but unfortunately it is not. The simple answer is:
    "It depends."
    But don't worry, we'll go into more depth than that here. Both superchargers and turbos have distinct advantages and disadvantages. Selecting the right kind of forced induction for your vehicle will depend upon your particular vehicle, your driving habits, your power preferences, and your needs.

    Clearing Up Confusion
    According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, a supercharger is defined as:
    "a device (as a blower or compressor) for pressurizing the cabin of an airplane or for increasing the volume air charge of an internal combustion engine over that which would normally be drawn in through the pumping action of the pistons".
    A turbocharger is defined as:
    "a centrifugal blower driven by exhaust gas turbines and used to supercharge an engine".

    According to Webster's, a turbocharger is included in the definition for superchargers - it is in fact a very specific type of supercharger - one that is driven by exhaust gasses. Other superchargers that do not fall into this category - the kind that we are all used to hearing about - are normally driven directly from the engine's crankshaft via a crank pulley. So in reality, it is not fair to compare all superchargers to turbochargers, because all turbochargers are also superchargers. For the purpose of this discussion, however, a supercharger will be considered all superchargers that are are not driven directly by the engine, while turbochargers will be considered all superchargers that are driven by engine exhaust gasses.

    Similarities
    Both superchargers and turbochargers are forced induction systems and thus have the same objective - to compress air and force more air molecules into the engine's combustion chambers than would normally be allowed at atmospheric pressure here on Earth (14.7 psi at sea level). The benefit of forcing more air molecules into the combustion chambers is that it allows your engine to burn more fuel per power stroke. With an internal combustion engine, burning more fuel means that you convert more fuel into energy and power. For this reason, supercharged and turbocharged engines normally produce 40% to 100% more power (depending on the amount of boost - check out our horespower calculator) than normally aspirated engines.

    How They Work
    A supercharger is mounted to the engine and is driven by a pulley that is inline with the crank (or accessory) belt. Air is drawn into the supercharger and compressed by either an impeller (centrifugal-style supercharger), twin rotating screws (screw-type supercharger), or counter-rotating rotors (roots-type supercharger). The air is then discharged into the engine's intake. Faster crank speed (more engine rpm) spins the supercharger faster and allows the supercharger to produce more boost (normally 6 to 9 psi for a street vehicle). Typical peak operating speeds for a supercharger are around 15,000 rpm (screw-type and roots style superchargers) and 40,000 rpm (centrifugal-style superchargers).

    A turbocharger operates in much the same way as a centrifugal (internal impeller) supercharger, except it is not driven by pulleys and belts attached to the engine's crank. A turbo is instead driven by exhaust gasses that have been expelled by the engine and are travelling through the exhaust manifold. The exhaust gas flows through one half of the turbocharger's turbine, which drives the impeller that compresses the air. Typical operating speeds of a turbocharger are between 75,000 and 150,000 rpm.

    Head to Head Comparison
    Now it's time to evaluate the turbocharger versus the supercharger according to several important factors.

    Cost
    The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.

    Lag
    This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
    A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.

    Efficiency
    This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.

    Heat
    Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.

    Surge
    Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.

    Back Pressure
    Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.

    Noise

    The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)

    Reliability

    In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.

    Ease of Installation
    Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.

    Maximum Power Output
    Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi ). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.

    Tunability
    Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.

    Conclusion
    While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.

    We hope you have found this discussion informative and unbiased. Sometimes when we explain this to our customers, they say that we are biased towards superchargers because that is all we carry. We remind those customers that a turbo is a kind of supercharger and that we truly hope to carry turbochargers someday. The reason we do not currently sell any turbochargers is because we have not yet found a turbo system that is suitable for mail-order / e-commerce sale. We are not prepared to sell a turbo system that is difficult to install and requires the attention of a professional engine tuner or mechanic. If any turbocharger manufacturer makes such a system, please send us the details as we would love to carry such a product.

    Sources : http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=19
    Share this post on: Excite BookmarksDiggRedditDel.icio.usGoogleLiveSlashdotNetscapeTechnoratiStumbleUponNewsvineFurlYahooSmarking

    avatar

    Post on 6/11/2008, 3:21 pm by Altec90

    nice info bro, problem is. Can show us the installation on it? More specific, in other word. Live Video Capture, and one thing. Picture? BEcause in a modern life, there will be more than 1 kind of supercharger that look alike like turbocharger. somehow, it's still running with pulley in order to compress an air pressure? Maybe? I just wonder, if i DO wrong, tell me k? hehe, i'm just a kid willing to learn and willing to spend time on it Smile
    avatar

    Post on 6/11/2008, 4:24 pm by Nieto

    1 kind of supercharger look alike is turbo, is centrifugal type. this type of supercharger if your vehicle faster and faster, the supercharger will getting faster and faster.

    some is root type or twin screw type, maybe u can search around supercharge thread i got post b4.


    nowadays, some car is using Multicharger, which is turbo + super. what benefit?
    -reduce lag lah, for lower and mid rpm, supercharger is full power, but high rpm, turbo will activate. keiichi tsuchiya tried b4 to drift by using multicharge silvia s15, a positive feedback frm tsuchya san. you can go youtube watch multicharger video.
    avatar

    Post on 6/11/2008, 4:26 pm by Nieto

    Altec90 wrote:nice info bro, problem is. Can show us the installation on it? More specific, in other word. Live Video Capture, and one thing. Picture? BEcause in a modern life, there will be more than 1 kind of supercharger that look alike like turbocharger. somehow, it's still running with pulley in order to compress an air pressure? Maybe? I just wonder, if i DO wrong, tell me k? hehe, i'm just a kid willing to learn and willing to spend time on it Smile


    to not let you confuse between centrifugal and turbine its easy, centrifugal have belt to pull it. while turbo no belt.
    avatar

    Post on 23/11/2008, 7:57 pm by jambory2001

    apa beza 2 benda ni??
    avatar

    Post on 8/12/2008, 10:11 pm by M!$z D3v!L

    klu mo bpilihanraya sal mana lg bgs tobo o supecas mmg xkn hbs..2 2 pn ada adv n disadv..
    sy lg bminat sma multicharging nih..nissan march superturbo pakai sistem ni.porsche pun klu xsilap ada develop 3-stage force induction system supercas+small turbo+big turbo..
    ada ka suda pomen d kk ni buat multicharge/twincharge..syok tu low sma top end tinggi..mcm mana dgn ball bearing turbo?kononya bb turbo lg cepat spool utk compensate lag time low rev..
    bgs buka satu thread lg kn bb turbo vs. twincharging hihihi
    sori a klu ni kira spam jelir zzzz....
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 2:25 am by Altec90

    Nieto wrote:1 kind of supercharger look alike is turbo, is centrifugal type. this type of supercharger if your vehicle faster and faster, the supercharger will getting faster and faster.

    some is root type or twin screw type, maybe u can search around supercharge thread i got post b4.


    nowadays, some car is using Multicharger, which is turbo + super. what benefit?
    -reduce lag lah, for lower and mid rpm, supercharger is full power, but high rpm, turbo will activate. keiichi tsuchiya tried b4 to drift by using multicharge silvia s15, a positive feedback frm tsuchya san. you can go youtube watch multicharger video.

    Give link What a Face What a Face
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 3:27 am by blugu

    M!$z D3v!L wrote:klu mo bpilihanraya sal mana lg bgs tobo o supecas mmg xkn hbs..2 2 pn ada adv n disadv..
    sy lg bminat sma multicharging nih..nissan march superturbo pakai sistem ni.porsche pun klu xsilap ada develop 3-stage force induction system supercas+small turbo+big turbo..
    ada ka suda pomen d kk ni buat multicharge/twincharge..syok tu low sma top end tinggi..mcm mana dgn ball bearing turbo?kononya bb turbo lg cepat spool utk compensate lag time low rev..
    bgs buka satu thread lg kn bb turbo vs. twincharging hihihi
    sori a klu ni kira spam jelir zzzz....

    bro, why not you share some interested fact in this matter, give us more info bout these setup, we are very please if you can give more info if this multicharger method is already in the local market beside Nissan March

    Thanks & cheers....
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 4:24 am by Altec90

    Yeah, i feel the same way too. WHy dont M!$z D3v!L share about it^^?
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 7:45 am by M!$z D3v!L

    hihi sy pun bukan pro baca2 sj..ada kawan pakai 4ag supecas mula2 plan mo wat twincharge tp considering complexity+cost+susa mo diagnose if anything goes wrong he opted foe bb turbo..tp samp skg blum jalan lg projek dia xda $$ hehe.. ni saki baki fail dia



    supecas + turbo



    supecas + turbo + 20 valve head swap



    individual throttle body remove use single throttle body

    (xigt dapat dari mana so xle bg credit..will look up into this l8r..)

    supecas masuk boost n tutup 1 way valve tu..utk high boost turbo spool n buka 1 way valve..fueling mesti cukup n poin d mana turbo kick in mesti ngam klu nda jadi dead spot jak dlm dyno

    satu yg bagus dia supecas ble letak suis (clutch belting dia electronic actuated so bleh bypass suis on-off) so klu bawa santai off kan utk pjimatan minyak..still with racing cam, low comp piston, metal gasket etc..don expect the fc to be the same as na car.. cheers minum dulu
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 8:59 am by blugu

    Kalau pasang 2nd set injector mcm dlm image 2 & 3 tu, lagi hebat dari setup bakakuk, so... adakah dia suda terfikir mcmana mau setup itu one-way valve, pernah jg dengar ada org try buat nie di penampang dulu, 4AG pakai twincharger, tapi so far blum ada result yg memberangsangkan. Mungkin mau pakai standalone/aftermarket ECU utk cover ignition timing & AFR. Suis supercharger kena manual ka, best jg kalau bleh on/off itu suis, kena relay on turbocharger la kalau suda off suis, tapi.... komfom kreta nie mmg tidak sesuai dipakai utk daily use suda, in my oppinionlar...
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 9:34 am by enon12feb

    Wah!!! Macam best nie cerita taw... Suspect
    Topik yang sangat2 menarik... Very Happy
    Give more info please... Hehehe... What a Face
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    ~EnOn~ Aramaitii!!! Wah!!! ~ SFC 03533 ~
    enon12feb@yahoo.com.my
    016 8051667
    [IMG=http://profiles.friendster.com/22239642]
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 1:04 pm by Altec90

    If i wonder the China product "Blower" yang macam Turbo siput tuh, kalau kita modified dia, guna system dia? macam Supercharger juga bah kan? Like said, BUka compenent, Soldering balik, guna pedal to control the Wind Spin < Solder on/Off switch + relay + modulator?> jadi kah tuh??

    passtuh, mulut dia kita simpan air filter, passtu, simpan intercooler, simpan blow valve, jadi sudah Electric supercharger like this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXZtGK_bKNk&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdLgF7CI3HQ&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgWJYgcWB4w&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBowIlXef0&NR=1
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 1:06 pm by Nieto

    Altec90 wrote:If i wonder the China product "Blower" yang macam Turbo siput tuh, kalau kita modified dia, guna system dia? macam Supercharger juga bah kan? Like said, BUka compenent, Soldering balik, guna pedal to control the Wind Spin < Solder on/Off switch + relay + modulator?> jadi kah tuh??

    passtuh, mulut dia kita simpan air filter, passtu, simpan intercooler, simpan blow valve, jadi sudah Electric supercharger like this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXZtGK_bKNk&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdLgF7CI3HQ&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgWJYgcWB4w&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBowIlXef0&NR=1


    Bro, saya rasa boleh, tapi banyak mahu modify, itu cost lagi tinggi terus. lagipun kena modify dia power via apa? supercharge power via crankpulley through belt.
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 8:14 pm by Altec90

    guna eletric bro Nieto, cuma guna Modulator, according to the pedal accelarator we press, more hard more electric, more electric supply, more fast rotation, i think it's can be done, but need to do alot of research and paper work. Kalau buat pun dalam bulan bulan, tiada sponsorship.
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 8:50 pm by Silent_Night

    relax What a precious info....keep it up man.!!!
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 9:49 pm by M!$z D3v!L

    found the website yipee!!
    cekout this cool project!!
    http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lane/1231/20-valve.html
    http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lane/1231/index.html

    credits goes to twincharger@hotmail.com

    blugu wrote:Kalau pasang 2nd set injector mcm dlm image 2 & 3 tu, lagi hebat dari setup bakakuk, so... adakah dia suda terfikir mcmana mau setup itu one-way valve, pernah jg dengar ada org try buat nie di penampang dulu, 4AG pakai twincharger, tapi so far blum ada result yg memberangsangkan. Mungkin mau pakai standalone/aftermarket ECU utk cover ignition timing & AFR. Suis supercharger kena manual ka, best jg kalau bleh on/off itu suis, kena relay on turbocharger la kalau suda off suis, tapi.... komfom kreta nie mmg tidak sesuai dipakai utk daily use suda, in my oppinionlar...

    1. 2nd set injector tu utk elakan fuel starvation time high boost..injector standard 4agze 365cc jak..gud for up to 14psi boost..higher than that afr can go too lean n detonate the engine.

    2. ecu dlm projek mamat ni sgtlah menarik sbb ecu dia megasquirt DIY (betul DIY tak tipu..) yg lagi menariknya sudala DIY, bole cntrl injector, boost, spark, supecas on-off, knock sensor, ignition timing, vvt, ignition retard per pound of boost, n mcm2 lglah..software utk tuning pon dibagi free!! pehh.. so sepa2 yg terer bab2 letrik n letronik ni tgk2 lah link ni..

    http://www.msefi.com/index.php

    supaya nanti bolela kami yg nda terer ni minta tolong buatkan kan hihihi

    3. Suis supecas xpyh tambah relay dia mmg ada sedia suda..cek pinout comp box 4agze (SMC) utk supercharger relay, bypass wayar dia n letak suis.

    4agze ecu pinouts:
    http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lane/1231/pinouts3.html

    klu pakai dashboard ae92 yg ada indicator supecas tu, wlupun suis off n supecas nda hidup, indicator dia masih mnyala klu tekan minyak. this is because ecu use different pins (TIL) to control the indicator. no need to worry bout afr mixture going too rich klu pki suis sbb jumlah minyak dikawal oleh boost/vaccum sensor di intake.

    4. the dude above uses his car often if not daily..not a problem for 5 years until the 1 way valve give up n went into his turbo..those valve werent really meant for this kind of application in the 1st place..so in term of reliability, i don think there'll be much issue as long as u know whatcha doin..

    somebody somewhere post 'mildly tune' twincharged engine punya dyno graph (will look into this l8r)..smooth curve from 1k rev-redline sejibik macam enjin v8 na..more reason to be tempted i guess hehehe Wink
    avatar

    Post on 9/12/2008, 10:04 pm by M!$z D3v!L

    come to think of it, looks like this thread is going off topic nda ngam sama tajuk suda huhu
    bro nieto suda buka thread baru utk twincharging ni
    http://www.sioloon.com/engine-performance-f9/twincharger-aka-turbo-supercharger-t9484.htm
    mungkin ada baiknya kita belalih ke sana?atau tukar tajuk cni?
    avatar

    Post on 10/12/2008, 6:26 am by Nieto

    lebih baik beralih, saya sengaja buka supaya sini tidak lari topic. diharap tiada sudah twincharger topic di sini. TQ
    avatar

    Post on 15/1/2009, 10:48 am by g_jin

    ini baru la kereta....kalau polis nampak nie,,....terkejut juga dia tu......mesti 15 ribu sdh kamu buang unt buat engine nie kan........atau lebih peace
    avatar

    Post on 16/1/2009, 9:38 pm by Adiox

    hello... pasang supercharger, legal ka kasi kluar bendala2 dri bonnet krta tu? abg putih n biru x 'jeles' ka npk???

    Post on 3/4/2009, 9:00 am by marcelo

    hi how are you i just want to know if 4age black top cams can fit in a silver top engine ? an what is the difference well my car is turbo charge i have in a 4agze piston how much boost can run on it with 4500cc injectors ?

    Post on 3/4/2009, 9:01 am by marcelo

    speck English?
    avatar

    Post on 3/4/2009, 12:57 pm by Nieto

    marcelo wrote:hi how are you i just want to know if 4age black top cams can fit in a silver top engine ? an what is the difference well my car is turbo charge i have in a 4agze piston how much boost can run on it with 4500cc injectors ?

    bro, welcome to sioloon. pls introduce urself at ice breaking thread. any question jus open a new topic to ask. tis topic is for turbo compare with supercharger.

    Post on 11/5/2009, 3:31 pm by adead

    aku nak tahu tentang enjin mivec MD

    Post  by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is 23/6/2017, 11:44 pm